Are you a social/poliical animal?

topic posted Thu, April 9, 2009 - 10:58 AM by  Unsubscribed
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I have posted this thread to ask who here does have a strong social conscience, if in fact you do wish to see a Better World.

If you do, would you say that you see the answer more in being active politically, or in bringing about change in the way people think?
If so, are you - ahem a New Ager?

If so, and you are into astrology/counselling/teaching, how does this influnece the way you work?
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  • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

    Fri, April 10, 2009 - 2:50 PM
    HMMM Well its heard to believe in a concept coined "New Age" when really every moment is a new time.... but yes I've been known to bounce around in a positively progressive fashion. Hoping that people get back to roots!
  • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

    Sat, April 11, 2009 - 2:27 AM
    Politics sort of freaks me out, especially when it comes to social issues where a group of people, even when a majority, determines what should apply to an individual in a societal context. Few things disturb me as much as this.

    I believe in trying to model my values and letting them speak for themselves, and letting other people make of them what they will. I also believe in rules of engagement for times when my views may come into conflict with others ~ that usually begins with "ask first, judge later" ~ you can't really react properly to anything if you don't know what it is. I think that is consistent with having an Aqua moon.

    There are a variety of aspects of the New Age Movement that seem to me to be back-handed attempts at social control, and some are more obvious than others. Certainly, that sort thing is not exclusive to the New Age Movement, nor does it mean that all things New Age involve back-handed attempts at social control. Some aspects of the New Age Movement seem to me to be desirable ~ such as an interest in the beliefs of the ancients and of the aboriginal peoples. I was a History major, after all. However, I find that many people following the New Age Movement do not look into these things but in the most superficial way, thereby leaving themselves open to a variety of difficulties, ranging from personally misinterpreting those beliefs to leaving themselves open to mind control ~ brain washing ~ when leaving the interpretations of those beliefs to others who then misrepresent them. The responsibility of understanding lies with the individual, which is true of any sphere of thought, and there is, frankly, no substitute for doing the work of that yourself. Superficial thinking in the New Age Movement specifically is, to my way of thinking, its most frequent and prevalent hobgoblin.

    I grow very weary of repeating to people who equate "survival of the fittest," for example, as the precept of Darwin's theory of Natural Selection. His actual precept was called "the struggle for existence," which is a far cry from the implied natural superiority the prior term connotes. "Survival of the fittest" is actually a concept that came from Social Darwinism. I become impatient with these sorts of misrepresentations when the accurate information is no farther away than Google, and can be found on the very first entry there.

    Mental laziness seems far too prevalent in the New Age Movement where a knowledge of the histories of just about everything is essential to functioning within the Movement with any true credibility at all. Hence, the New Age Movement is often equated with being "superstitious," "deluded," "airy fairy," "mystic," and just outright ignorant. Unfortuately, it seems to be coming by that reputation for some very good reasons. It is too bad that the New Age Movement, which can be taken as a impetus for education, too often becomes just another method whereby people resort to not thinking at all.
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      Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

      Sat, April 11, 2009 - 12:51 PM
      'There are a variety of aspects of the New Age Movement that seem to me to be back-handed attempts at social control'

      Do you mean things like scientology?

      At some point I will post one or two things I saw at Wiki on the genesis of various 'New Age' ideas.


      • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

        Sat, April 11, 2009 - 1:30 PM
        EST was a early version ~ whatever happened to that anyway?

        And then there are a bunch of less-organized little species that have infested various areas off and on. Some of the things are just sort of truisms that have infected the culture to a degree that rejection of them can constitute a sort of social blasphemy, such as I'm Ok, You're Ok. (What if I am NOT Ok with how you are Ok? ~ Sucks being me then, since you're Ok.)

        Another good one is how getting angry is uncool ~ it just spreads negativity throughout the universe and damages the progress of human evolution, needs to be irradicated from human consciousness for the benefit of all, and, of course, is the sole responsibility of the person who feels the emotion. Your anger clearly shows that you are messed up because being angry is just a reflection (or projection) of your being a very unhappy person who cannot resolve the psychological insecurities and pathologies within yourself. It has nothing to do with the fact that I just got you fired by telling the boss a lie about you that has him believing you are an embezzler. That sort of thing. The list of these sorts of twisted rationalizations is simply too long to enumerate. They also do seem to me to be rather emblematic of the downside of the New Age Movement and the typical ways in which people manipulate others within this era.
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          Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

          Sun, April 12, 2009 - 10:21 AM
          I have certainly seen a few posters here declare that emotions are the villain and we 'should' not happen.
          Anger is what motivates us to change or challenge, confront an unacceptable soluion. Without fear we would end up éoike the dodo. totally unable to recognise danger.

          Apparently, an inability to emote due to brain damage, does not a pointy.eared you-know-what make in actual fact, but rather someone totally unable to make decisions. Withput emotions, it gets to be impossible to decide what it is you really 'want' interesatingly enogh.

          EST has died a death I hope.

          As ab 'old fart' I remember a period of time when most people were either polarised into taking a political stance and rejecting anything that smacked of 'mystic crap.' Or they were New Agey, with the wonderful rhetoric that you 'create your own reality.' And seemed worse to me than the Tory stronghold I grew up in.
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            Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

            Mon, April 13, 2009 - 11:09 AM
            'Survival of the fittest" is actually a concept that came from Social Darwinism'

            I have heard this expression before.
            I live in a very dog-eat-dog milieau, but I would still like to know a little more about how it is generally understood.
            • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

              Mon, April 13, 2009 - 2:59 PM
              What ~ you mean the concept of "survival of the fittest"?
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                Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                Tue, April 14, 2009 - 12:42 AM
                Yes.
                • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                  Tue, April 14, 2009 - 1:50 AM
                  While this is debatable, it seems to me that this notion has come to mean in most people's minds that somehow some are better adapted ~ inherently ~ to "survive" or dominate a particular environment, and to some people's way of thinking ~ taken to the extreme ~ any environment. In actuality, "fitness" is totally related to a particular environment, and the term is meaningless outside of a context ~ there is no such thing as inherent fitness for anything outside of a particular environment. As a simple analogy, in a world with "low ceilings", the tall creature will be at a disadvantage, for example; so being tall, in and of itself, is a relative indicator of fitness, depending on where the food supply, etc., is. Some have used this notion to justify the belief in the superiority and inferiority of races, which is clearly bogus.

                  Among species, it is easy to see that when an environment changes, those individuals who may have been in a struggling minority when the climate was overly warm, become more plentiful and dominant when the climate becomes cooler for a long spell. The former "fittest" suffer die back and diminish. Given a long enough cooling period, the formerly "fittest" become the most unfit, and species dominance then shifts to the individuals better adapted to cold. Once the climate changes and it grows warmer longer again, there will be a resurgence of the warmth-inclined individuals, who then may dominate the environment once again. But there is nothing inherently more "fit" about either type. Their "fitness" is determined by conditions around them, not by their inherent characteristics. Environmental adaptability, (aka prevalence in mutation) however, may well be as close as any individual in a species can come to "inherent fitness," since the capacity to adapt to changing environments ~ the creatures who can tolerate both the warming and the cooling of the climate over long periods, for example ~ are likely to be able to dominate over those who can only tolerate one or another temperature range Mutation is key in Darwin's theory. It is through mutation that species evolve and wind up "looking" (also behaving, functioning, reacting, etc.) very differently from their ancestors. Without "chance mutation" there would probably be nothing much around on the planet, since mutation is what allows adaptability witin a species in the first place. Mutations take place all the time in all living things, and while often those seem to be monstrosities within our present contexts, they may well prove dominant and most "fit" in others. It is very relative, to say the least.
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                    Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                    Tue, April 14, 2009 - 3:08 AM
                    OK thanks Amiable, I was having a bit of a 'doh' moment. I was looking to expand on what is understood by social darwisnism, where 'survival of the fittest' may be used to justify the kind of dog-eat-dog world where various kinds of what do not seem to be espcially fair ways of behaving get to be condoned.
                    • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                      Tue, April 14, 2009 - 3:21 AM
                      You can extrapolate from the examples. It may not be one's fitness, but one's fitness for a particular environment (occupation) that come into play. I am still trying to find my "fit." I basically believe I just don't anywhere "out there" and need to figure out how I can "fit" outside of out there. LOL. Or something like that anyway. For other aspects of my life, I "fit" rather well.
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                    Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                    Tue, April 14, 2009 - 12:06 PM
                    Well said butterfly person - I'm a gonna give you a pat on the back
                    *pats*
                    I rather call you butterfly person since your amia...... name is difficult to spell.

                    Your concept on 'survival of the fittest' reminds me of Bruce Lee and his methods of becoming one of the most dominant fighters in the world.

                    I do martial arts as well so I've learnt something about the size of a guy in combat: -

                    To the average mind, size matters (no penis reference intended), especially in combat.

                    If a lioness comes across a large black bear she will back down due to initmidation of the size the bear has. We all naturally have the instinct "if you're bigger, your attacks are more lethal and powerful". A lioness is probably a more well balanced hunter to the bear with high muscle density, fierce agression and razor sharp claws. But the lioness would prefer to back down to a bear.

                    Most average guys go to the gym to get bigger, stronger, more mass, more weight, MORE POWER!!!!!111111111111111

                    Of course, I've learnt that true power comes from speed and not weight. Smaller guys don't realise how much of an advantage they have over bigger guys in a fight. Bruce Lee learnt this and most bigger guys were no match for him at all.

                    An educated mind is truly a symbol of "survival of the fittest".

                    Y'know, I'm starting to sound like confuscious
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                      Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                      Tue, April 14, 2009 - 12:16 PM
                      'And actually, Nexus7, it should not be that hard to see that Social Darwinism has been used to support a variety of forms of bigotry.'

                      Well, sometimes I like to get to the root of why it is so easy to justify certain kinds of behaviour, however obvious or redundantly clear the ideas might otherwise seem. And now it seems that Darwin was not actualy a Darwininst, after all. I see a lot of social darwinism masquerading as 'spirituality' in one or two quarters, but it gets called 'soul hunger' instead.


                    • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                      Tue, April 14, 2009 - 4:08 PM
                      <Y'know, I'm starting to sound like confuscious >

                      LOL!

                      And some of my friends call me mothy. I am actually a Saturniidae ~ an Emperor moth ~ and also a nocturnal astrological moth. LOL. Long story. But I am also usually shortened to amiable, regardless of whether or not I am behaving that way. LOL.

                      What yo say for martial arts, yes, and often peple do not realize that the same applies to fencing. Agile and smaller women can have a distinct advantage over a larger opponent. "Fitness" can be less obvious than a lot of people think.
    • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

      Wed, April 15, 2009 - 3:23 AM
      "I grow very weary of repeating to people who equate "survival of the fittest," for example, as the precept of Darwin's theory of Natural Selection. His actual precept was called "the struggle for existence," which is a far cry from the implied natural superiority the prior term connotes. "Survival of the fittest" is actually a concept that came from Social Darwinism. I become impatient with these sorts of misrepresentations when the accurate information is no farther away than Google, and can be found on the very first entry there.

      Mental laziness seems far too prevalent in the New Age Movement where a knowledge of the histories of just about everything is essential to functioning within the Movement with any true credibility at all. Hence, the New Age Movement is often equated with being "superstitious," "deluded," "airy fairy," "mystic," and just outright ignorant. Unfortuately, it seems to be coming by that reputation for some very good reasons."


      In fact in the animal kingdom there are many examples of intra-species altruism. Being altruistic and selfless is hardly surivavl of the fittest. Elaborate theories have been concocted to explain it. However then there is INTER-species altruism, much more difficult to explain away. It seems science has resorted to making the facts fit the theory, rather than the theory fitting the facts.
      Selfishness is not permissable by waving the 'survival of the fittest' card. Selflessness exists in the world also, and also promotes survival.
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        Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

        Wed, April 15, 2009 - 11:29 AM
        In fact I'd go as far as to say that some of these books are actually spiritually dangerous........'

        'My experience is that many of the people who buy these books and attend workshops based on them etc, have an almost cult-like inability to be sceptical about it. I even think that in some cases these beliefs can often lead to mental illnesses'



        I had a boyfriend once who had been into esorteric astrology. He was pretty secretive about it to begin with, not telling me how well-acqainted he was with the real thing (Pluto rising, square Mercury).

        Well, he turned out to be a paranoid schizophrenic, he lost his sanity aghain and his deterioration was pretty harrowing to witness. But he later confessed to me that he had been 'badly psyched' by all this stuff, the idea, as someone put it eslewhere that the spiritual ideal is to become this disembodied, emotionless spirit.

        When I was an undergraduate and Seeking, the whole thing really disturbed me and later one, a community worker, when I told her about it, also commented that this preoocuaption with false personas and diembodies spirits can be 'very dangerous.'

        The best critique of Blavatsky and Baliey to my mind, remains Monica Sjöö, but when I told someone on Tribe where my interests lay, it seems that this was a mistake. But whatever.

        I became truly 'politically aware' after graduating at a time when there were 500 graduates to 1 job and got the blame for this. The unemployed were lazy, did not want to work, were all unwashed scroungers, etc. Well, give a dog a bad name......

        My quarrel with New Agers later on was that it was all back to 'we all crrate our own reality' when patently, we cannot make any assumptions anywhere near as solipsistic as that. Anyway - it stung. I did not personally create the recession then, though would still suggest that of course, morale matters at the job interview, if you really want the job you are applying for.

        I think the Secret et al is another rehash of the rebirthing movements, EST, etc that I came across in the 1980's. Here on Tribe, I had a altercation with someone who considers any kind of misfortune as indicative of 'victim mentalities' - and anyone who cannot see the link between this and certain 'I'm all-righ-jack' political philosophies, must really be selectively missing a few points there.

        I wil try and find the links on Wiki at some point.
        • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

          Wed, April 15, 2009 - 2:19 PM
          "My quarrel with New Agers later on was that it was all back to 'we all crrate our own reality' when patently, we cannot make any assumptions anywhere near as solipsistic as that."

          I have to admit that this also irritates me, it is a total bastardisation of logic. It is true that in keeping a positive attitude and frame of mind you raise the possibility to having a positive result. A smile ilicits a smile in return. However it is illogical to then assume that when something goes WRONG it is because the attitude wasn't correct. It is as equally illogical as noticing that cats and dogs both have tails, and then assuming that a cat must be a dog. Because it is true in one instance does not make it a universal law, nor does it make the opposite equally true.
          It is good to have a positive attitude, but if a woman is raped, it is not because 'she makes her own reality'. I quite honestly tell you that that is what I was told by one of those women. I found the whole concept completely illogical and totally messed up. I offered the example of someone losing their job, she claimed that that would happen due to ego-attachment and other bullshit. I then offered a women being raped as an example, same thing. She obviously 'wanted' it on some deeper level. I sincerely hope neither woman ever meet anyone who has been the victim of ANY crime, let alone a rape. I can only imagine the psychological devestation that such a statement could cause.
          • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

            Wed, April 15, 2009 - 6:24 PM
            In a fashion, I think the whole auto-brainwashing thing is more insidious and subtle than that. You may not have "wanted" it, but now that it is a fact, you MUST figure out how to instantly make it a good, positive thing for you. ! I guess because anything bad just can't be dealt with somehow , so you make it good in your mind ~ well, that is the way it sounds to me anyway. And, of course, I think that is crap.
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              Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

              Fri, April 17, 2009 - 3:59 AM
              As I understand it, theidea that we 'create our own reality' comes from the channelled wor of Baily and Blavatsky, a supposed 'master key' to the world's Great Religions, as well as handbooks for the supposed evolution of humanity.

              My point before is that whilst it may be true that being depressive for example, is a sure-fire way not to get the breaks you deservein life, the point where this gets to be absurd an be easily pinpointed. Dane Rusdhyar, Alice Bailey's disciple, declared in astrology that 'events do ot happen to people nearly as much as peple hapen to events' and yes, we knew there are better or worse ways to react to an economic crisis.

              Wehre it gets silly, is where he then suggests that if an apple falls on our head, then we must assume that that is somehow our 'fault' because we have consciousness and the apple doesn't.

              So much for Newton and the lasw of gravity.

              The thing is, almost all of modern astrology, including 'evolutionary' and whatever, is all based on thepremise that we can somehow change our fates by developing a more inclusive sense of awareness. It happens anwayay in life - the older a couple is when they get marries, the less chance they may have of divorcing, simply because when you are older, you are more mature and - well, probably die sooner into the marriage.

              Therer are more strictly divinatory forms of astrology such as horary that do not work with he diea that we can develop free will by becoming More Aware. However, if there are other formsof astrology hat are not based on the 'modern' precepts of Rudyhar ad the New Agers, I would hear of them.
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                Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                Sat, April 18, 2009 - 10:03 PM
                nexus... I really enjoyed your reading your thoughts!

                what I am wondering about their idea of consciousness.. ... it could be they are confused by the complexity of human consciousness... vs. the simplicity of a law like gravity. not to say that their aren't other factors that can influence an apple on a tree to fall, its just that our world happens to have a steady predictable pattern....where apple trees grow..is a relatively calm environment (i mean as is made visible to us, i am sure if i knew more about physics I wouldn't say that our environment is so simple..but you know) The insides of our minds, or consciousness...or awareness combined with the limits of our physical abilities is much more complex. We have an entire body, with various organs and body parts and ...its complex..and maybe the part that makes us feel like its so complex is because we are the center of our little universe in a sense.. its like we are our own God, watching over everything....looking at situations, making decisions... we feel like we have so much control and power..and we really do...we love this power and this control..and it seems like we have created a culture with more and more options and more things to control and regulate..because we love it so much... but the limit really seems to stop, as far as science has proved conclusively...within the realm of our neurons... our biology... so until proven otherwise... I like to think of exercising some restraint...
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                  Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                  Sun, April 19, 2009 - 11:22 AM
                  'its like we are our own God, watching over everything....looking at situations, making decisions... we feel like we have so much control and power..and we really do...we love this power and this control.'

                  Hi Teal

                  Well yes, with all those multitudes of neurons swimming around in our heards and entire solar sytems swimming aroung and all, it is no wonder we might fee like gods.

                  And it is solipsists who cold then say that good guys and bad guys are a figment of our own inner worlds and imagination.

                  Except of course, we are still pretty mortal and then we are prey to many kinds of misfortune. But then, the tendency to blame the poor for their predicament, to give one example around, has been around a lot longer than any New Age kind of thinking. Perhaps that isone cause of it - in order to 'feel' more godlike, it then may become necssary to say that misfortunes of any kind are self-created in some ways.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
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                    Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                    Sun, April 19, 2009 - 12:48 PM
                    yeah i kind of made that statement a little confusing! I often write like I speak.... when I said "and we really do" I just wanted to counter some of the path of determinism i was picturing... because I do think for us, with the level of complexity and variables involved in our lives... we do have choice..just not unlimited choice ( as far as we know) I just think its really a great idea to work within what we know... try to stay balanced... somehow :)

                    I am not a solipsist.... I dont think I am a mere figment, or that you are either... even if that was true... I dont see the practicality in it... I just think theres a lot of cause and effect and interconnectedness...and to ignore that seems kind of dangerous

                    I have been extremely naive in my life... though... somehow I just take on ideas so easily...because I am so curious... its the more negative traits of having a libra moon... I guess it can be really nice to relate to both sides though...
  • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

    Wed, April 15, 2009 - 2:52 AM
    "If you do, would you say that you see the answer more in being active politically, or in bringing about change in the way people think?
    If so, are you - ahem a New Ager?
    If so, and you are into astrology/counselling/teaching, how does this influnece the way you work? "


    I was never interested in politics. However lately I have become more politically aware. I used to never see any difference between one political group and another, in my mind, both just want power and the dividing line was thin to the point of non-existent....at least in the UK and Ireland. I am starting to lately see some more subtle differences to the point that I will probably vote for the first time in the next general election. I have never voted before and will turn 24 in a couple of months.

    I also consider myself 'New Agey' in that I study astrology, practice tarot and even enjoy palm reading. I believe somewhat in reincarnation, I believe that there are energy wheels called chakras and I have an intellectual interest in Kabballah. All of these things fall under the New Age umbrella. Obviously none of these things are new, more like a renaissance.
    I don't consider myself New Agey when it comes to the 'authors' of new age books. I have never read Eckhart Tolle, Deepak Chopra, The Secret, The Celesitine Prophecy etc. etc. and from researching them somewhat, I don't see what they have to add. They seem to me, a 'cashing in' on older insights, only without the understanding or the subtlety of the original message. For all their talk of 'give up the ego' an "don't be attached to money", I have no doubt that the authors of these books have made themselves very wealthy. Contrast this to the 'truly' spiritual figures such as Jesus and the Buddha, who not only preached that message but had the good grace to lead by example also. Have any of these new age books anything to add that Jesus or the Buddha has not already added? My personal view is no.

    It seems people flock to these books like one would a bible and see it particularly so in people who lack genuine spiritual understanding or foundation. It seems, based on the followers of these believers, that the people who do often seem to lack the ability to differentiate between 'reality' and 'fiction'. In fact I'd go as far as to say that some of these books are actually spiritually dangerous. I apologise if this is harsh, and obviously I'm not saying EVERYONE is like this. But in my experience, the majority are. In fact in a lot of situations, these books try to affiliate themselves with having scientific recognition bringing in all sorts of notions such as quantum theory. Whilst these claims may in the fullness of time be recognised as legitimate, we should always remain sceptical. My experience is that many of the people who buy these books and attend workshops based on them etc, have an almost cult-like inability to be sceptical about it. I even think that in some cases these beliefs can often lead to mental illnesses. The idea of 'no ego' sounds great in terms of no egoTISM, but that is not what happens. How is it that so many people can forget that we actually NEED an ego, a sense of self. Without it we become sheep.
    • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

      Wed, April 15, 2009 - 3:13 AM
      "that the people who do often seem to lack the ability to differentiate between 'reality' and 'fiction'"

      One case in point.

      I was having lunch with two women (one in her early thirties, the other her mid-fourties) who I knew were into new age stuff. I was talking to them about Astrology and how interesting it was that they formed a friendship at a seminar and seem to have so much in common and how one was a Taurus, the other a Libra and both are connected by Venus etc etc.
      The talk turned to the Celestine Prohecy and one of the women said that this was the best book ever written, and should be taught in classrooms for young kids, to help them usher in the Age of Aquarius, after all they are Indigo children, she claims. Now, Indigo Children and Aquarian Ages aside, I was interested in the Celestine Prophecy, having heard so much hype about it, but never having read it.
      She told me what it was about, finding ancient documents in peru relating to 9 spiritual insights blah blah blah. Sounds like a nice book and probably is. However, the most important question I asked was "when was it written?". Neither woman could tell me. Fair enough, nothing unusual, so I asked "It is fiction though, right?". Both women said No. Then one woman said she didn't know, she didn't think so. Then they decided it was a dramatisation of a real event. This was shocking to me. I asked them more about the manuscript in the book itself, had it been written of in any other context etc. They didn't know. But it was probably real, but then the most important part "it doesn't even matter whether its real or not". Unfortunately this is my experience of many New Age people. They have inability, indeed they a hesitation, to deciphering what is real and what is not. To the point where some get to a point where they actually forget what is real and what is essentially just a piece of fiction. It is true that many of the 'insights' based in this book relate to older Eastern thought, however there is a more political undertone to the books which is purely fictitious and indeed several historical inaccuracies. The Mayans in Peru? Hardly, that would have been the Incancs, the Mayans were in Central America. Mayans wrote Aramaic manuscripts? Huh? So there are loads of obvious tell-tale signs for anyone at least moderately educated or intelligent that this is a work of fiction, and yet these two women were not the only ones I have spoken to who couldn't tell me whether the Celestine Prophecy was an actual ancient manuscript such as the Nag Hamadi library were, or just a work of fiction.

      (even after this conversation where I highlighted the obvious logical fallacies in considering it to be real, particuarly the Mayans writing Aramaic and living in Peru, one of the women later saw the film, saying it was amazing, that they 'actually showed the aura interacting with other thoughts, they actually filmed it'. Presumably the notion of special effects goes out the window. I made especial importance of asking whether this was through Kirlian Photography. It wasn't. It was just special effects.)

      • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

        Tue, April 21, 2009 - 1:56 PM
        It occuured to me I did not answer my own question. In my day jobthere is not really much room for 'changing the world' but certainky, somehow, a lot of conversations in class do get round to The State of the World.

        Here everyone is an in infrastructure that does not appear to be especially enabling - I have qesrions, speculations, so do thepeople I alk o. Very often.
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          Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

          Tue, April 21, 2009 - 4:01 PM
          For Aquariuns, I've met many (as most have) who have it as a sun sign or a moon sign but theres no pattern for all of them being humanitarian and seeing the big picture.

          Maybe because british people have a habit of repressing their true emotions. All aquarians are all highly social though so they will eventually become considerate for the wellfair of others in many forms.
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            Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

            Tue, April 21, 2009 - 4:31 PM
            My grammar was appalling in that last post and I think I made loads of spelling mistakes.

            Ignore my bad grammar, I can use good grammar when I'm more awake
            • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

              Wed, April 22, 2009 - 2:16 AM
              ..and I can write using better spelling.

              I do think it is a bit of a cliché to say British people are repressed. I would say I find Hungarians a lot more reserved and repressed than the British. I think in the UK it would be ture to say that the more middle-class you are the more more you tend to conform to the stereotype. It is certainly, however, extremely conservative.
              • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                Wed, April 22, 2009 - 2:21 AM
                ...haivng said that, the 'alternative' community in the UK is a great dealmore anarchic, far more willing to challenge taboos, be civilly disobedient than most people would dare to be in Hungary, where I work now. But then, there was a lo more real political repression at one time.
              • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                Wed, April 22, 2009 - 2:36 AM
                "It is certainly, however, extremely conservative. "

                In some ways that's probably true, but at the same time there is probably less 'racism' for example than is sometimes seen in the 'southern' states like Texas etc. which bans gay marriage. Civil partnerships are a part of the UK life.
                Certainly there is a repression of the UK people in the 80s but lately that's changing. Sexually britiain's young are a lot more active and open than before, with the UK pretty much leading the way in Europe now on teenage pregancy for example. There's definitely still a 'class' society though.
                • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                  Wed, April 22, 2009 - 4:02 AM
                  I am a little out of touch with life in the UK now.

                  Compared to Hungary, it is far more tolerant to minorities, alternative lifestyles by far, you would be maazed by how extraordinarily intolerant in some ways people in Central/Estern Europe can be. Case in point is certain attitudes towrs Gypsies, for example, let along gays.

                  A student of mine told me he wanted to discuss something he called the 'Lugano' project during our English lesson, as he feels he lacks the vocabulary to discuss political issues adequately. The Lugano project is apparently an elite of millionaires who wish to solve some of the more pressing problems of earth's resources and over-population.

                  I had a horrible idea of where the ideas might be leading and made a point of being very obtuse. There were polite inquiries as to whether I thought maybe that some people might have certain....genetic flaws that they could not help. of course.

                  It seems that this Lugano project is not adverse to a little bit of discrete culling of...well, I think you can guess the rest. Resentment was expressed by the way the winners always write up history, the Holocuast in particular.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                    Sun, April 26, 2009 - 11:11 AM
                    Paul, is there still much of a big divide bertween those people who are quite actively political but who tend to reject 'mystic crap' and those who are, well, more into the more mystic side of things?
                    • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                      Sun, April 26, 2009 - 1:15 PM
                      "Paul, is there still much of a big divide bertween those people who are quite actively political but who tend to reject 'mystic crap' and those who are, well, more into the more mystic side of things?"

                      The UK is becoming more and more an Atheist country. Anything mystical is slowly but surely becoming 'low brow' or even laughable.
                      Perhaps this is happening globally, I can only really talk about the UK.

                      Obviously there are great number of 'famous' atheists in the UK which the UK public admire such as Stephen Fry and Richard Dawkins for example.
                      • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                        Sun, April 26, 2009 - 1:26 PM
                        ...and Randi I suppose. I didn't know Stephen Fry was getting on the old soapbox on that too.

                        I did watch Dawkins going around psychic fairs showing up the psychics and the mystics.
                        • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                          Sun, April 26, 2009 - 1:28 PM
                          ..so has that....erm, tome, the Secret found much bandwidth in the UK? It has, alas, been translated into Hungarian and I have seen it in shops here.
                          • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                            Mon, April 27, 2009 - 12:49 AM
                            "..so has that....erm, tome, the Secret found much bandwidth in the UK?"

                            YOu can't walk into a bookshop without stumbling across a stray copy, they clog up aisles where actual books could have been homed.
                            • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                              Mon, April 27, 2009 - 12:54 AM
                              'YOu can't walk into a bookshop without stumbling across a stray copy, they clog up aisles where actual books could have been homed.'

                              Let the recession deepen a bit further. Then we will see how popular this thing remains.
                              • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                                Mon, April 27, 2009 - 1:18 AM
                                "Let the recession deepen a bit further. Then we will see how popular this thing remains. "

                                During hard times people cling to fantasy as escapism. I think the secret will blossom under these circumstances. One of the women I've already mentioned (the one who didn't pay back the money and thought it was because of the other's persons 'attachment' to money) has since moved away from where I live. She went a little 'crazy' to be honest. Which is why I worry these books are not 'healthy'. She left her job as she found it wasn't as fullfilling as she hoped and wanted to do something else. Taking Echkart Tolle's 'live in teh moment' advice. She just quit with no backup plan, money or purpose. Had no money, didn't pay her rent or bills, her 17yr daughter had no money for anything, there was barely any food and when she got housing benefit she blew it all on a 'seminar' on some similar new age subject. She has gone from being a successful London accounts admin on $60,000 to being unemployed on benefits. She still hasn't found her 'dream' job, despite having written it on pieces of paper as advised by the notions of cosmic ordering.
                                • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                                  Mon, April 27, 2009 - 1:30 AM
                                  'During hard times people cling to fantasy as escapism'

                                  I fear you may be right, now you mention it.

                                  'This Eckart Tolle does seem to have become very popular.

                                  In the 80's the equaivalents I encountered were people involved in rebirthing, co-counsellors and the like and the rhetoric then was that if you were unemployed, ever had any health condition, you were to blame, as 'we create our own reality.' There did not seem to be any really weighty critiques of this kind of alternative thinking, from where it had its roots, though I had already seen that there was a Monica Sjöö starting to be critical of al this. Unfortunately she also had a tendency to swing the other way, in fact she was positively Luddite. I met her at a festival once - the one where I saw someone being beaten up - and she wrote me off the minute I pulled out my pocket computer. She also told me my Tarot artworks 'did not have enough Balck people' though in fact, there are quite a few - I was living in multicultural Coventry at the time and was spending a lot of time in Birmingham, where there were at least as many Blacks as Whies.

                                  Now it seems as though history is repeating itself. It s still very interesting to hear about these things, as it seems the thing has not played itself out at all. I have cone across Toll's books and to me, his solutions to the vicissitudes of life seem very over-simplified.
                                  • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                                    Mon, April 27, 2009 - 1:39 AM
                                    "She also told me my Tarot artworks 'did not have enough Balck people' though in fact, there are quite a few - I was living in multicultural Coventry at the time and was spending a lot of time in Birmingham, where there were at least as many Blacks as Whies."

                                    I went to Uni near Birmingham, in Wolverhampton.

                                    It's ridiculous to be told off for not having enough Black people in the Tarot artwork. The original rider-waite could be said the same of. Presumably she told you off for not having enough Asian, Indian, Native American and Inuit people as well? Probably not.
                                    • Re: Are you a social/poliical animal?

                                      Mon, April 27, 2009 - 5:03 AM
                                      Isuppose it is no wonder that a lot of people resct against 'political correctness' though that too is a question I have not seen adequately answered here. I was very disapointed in that woman's responses, it just all seemed to heavily-handedly petty.

                                      As for recentl arguments elsewhere though - at what point should be be able to say that 'this is a comment incitinghate' - do we join the line here? I never had any wish to go around like some kind of a prissy schoolmarm saying 'oooh, that's disxcriminating, censor it' but there are times and places elsewhere when certainly, certain kinds of statement do make me feel like hurling a shoe into the screen.......

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